50BMG tune problem.

[50 BMG]

JDM's car made over 600/600 on an 1st gen apten port and the then JDM stage 2 cams in april of 2004, 100 octane.



All of the following was during a 4 hour dyno session in 100+ degree weather on MT drag slicks:
According to Rob, my IAT2 temps never went above 125 when they were dyno tuning my car on the 100 octane tune. They read 121 after the 5th dyno pull. They were really suggesting for me to move to a 8lb lower as well...guess the trunk reservoir works?

The car peaked 418rwhp @ 5700 RPM's (or 527rwhp "corrected' to their dyno)
Max boost, 16 PSI, came at 4200 RPM's and quickly fell off thereafter
Peak torque was at just under 3500 RPM's, and measured 410 rwtq (~520rwtq corrected) on their dyno

Rob said the A/F stayed between 11.5-11.7 on the 100 octane tune, I haven't confirmed that yet but I assume it's true cause I'll bet he just stacked on the 91 octane tune and added timing for the additional octane. I don't know what timing he ran on the 100 octane tune. He said the 91 octane tune had 22 degrees of timing and was way safe. I told him to tune it like it was 89 or 90 octane gas cause pump gas sucks ass out here.



Needless to say, I don't even take this car past 5500 RPM's cause it goes slower when I do. My trap speeds took a big shit when I took the car to 7 grand on the 100 octane tune. I was just ****in around short shifting when I ran the 124 trap (which was actually my first time at strip with the mods), never had the BFG DR's above 100 MPH and wanted to take it easy on the big end my first time down the strip on them.

The torque and boost drop so fast it's stupid. I'll bring the dyno sheets on Sunday if you want to see this, it's actually kinda funny. We'll see what it can really do on Dan's new dyno in 3 weeks on both tunes with some (finally) good ambient weather and no dyno power robbing MT slicks on the car. I have a hunch the car will be a damn animal with the 17 PSI pulley on the whipple if I make peak rwhp at 5700 RPM's right now.

[Lucafu1]

I think those are some pretty good numbers.
Your right about JDMs car, and I htink He did it thru a auto. There was alot of tunning on that thing though.
I dont think cams are worth as much as people think. Your tune is real safe and still makes power. Your trap could be due to lots of reasons.
Was it hot out, do you power shift? These cars are funny, but once things get worked out its worth it.
Ive always herd good things about SVC, but they are way to expensive for me. I called them and asked about a tune (I have my own Xcal2) and they said starting at $500. Im sorry but damn, If I do get a tune it will probly be thru AZ Dyno Chip since they use SCT. Unless that new shop uses SCT, then theres another option.
I like RWTD but tunes take to long for me. I have a pretty good tune now, I adjusted it alittle so I can spray a 75 shot tomarrow (hopefulley). But drivability isnt to great and my MPG sucks, lol, but my foot doesnt help either.

Luis

[50 BMG]

Your exactly right luis, cams take -a long time- to get tuned right on these cars. But as shown in JDM's case, it was well worth it. That car (and the fact I knew I'd move to a twin screw soon) was the reason I did cams; just imagine if JDM had their current grinds and a steige stage 4 port instead :twisted: JDM screwed with that car for a while (it had IRS and a 6 speed when it did 600/600, it later ran a 10.1 with a mach 1 auto and a SRA+75 shot). Dan has offered to take the time to get this car right in the tuning department.

I like James at RWTD; he has been more than kind to me in offering me discounts on things beyond tunes. But, I'm not really interested in going back and forth with him on a eaton/cam car to try and squeeze more power out of it.

[The Nunn's]

you want you AF to be around 11:5 to 11:8 that is the sweet spot as for your tune we have a location now so I pushing for the Grang opening in feb first week but will be open sooner for buisness


once again this is Dan

[Screamn03]

50BMG, what's your mods? What cams, what port, and what pulley combo on the blower?

I have a stageII ported Eaton with the FR500 cams and layed down 510/495SAE. This was on the same conservitve tune where I did 487/470SAE that had 19*max timing and 11.5-12.0 AFR (on the street).

I now have the SCT PRP and am slowly working up on the power but the cams created all kinds of little irritating drivability issues, mainly idle and startup issues that I'm more concerned about working out first. The reason I went with the FR500 cams was because I wanted to still try and pass CA emissions. I think there's still alot more left in this car though, plus it's only a 2.8upper, still have a lower to use at a later date when I get a fuel system that'll handle it since I'm already maxing the pumps out.

The JDM car is amazing, don't know what they did to get that with the auto but props to them. Considering it ran like a 10flat at the MMFF Terminator shootout I'd say it's making damn good power.

I asked Beefcake about his cam specs multiple times and he ignored me, if I remember the mag article it was Comps with something like 230* of duration.

Over all I think Gene hit the nail on the head, the blower just can't flow the air needed to make the cams really shine. If you look at N/A combos with cams they pickup mean power above 5K but yet that's just where the Eaton really starts to fall off. Hell, the FR500 valvetrain is suppose to be good to 7500, damn Eaton would explode and/or melt if I tried to spin it that fast...lol.

The biggest thing that I think alot of power will come from is an optimized timing curve. I'm running a timing curve currently that everyother RWTD tuned Terminator runs. I would think that cams would slightly alter the amount of timing the motor would want based on previous experiences with other motors but I'm ballshy to experiement in fear of a broke piston.

[50 BMG]

50BMG, what's your mods? What cams, what port, and what pulley combo on the blower?

All mods listed here, writeup included:
http://saleenpower.com/forums/index....CODE=12&CID=52
Engine mods:
Crower stage 3 supercharged grind (grind stats are on their website, it's a real aggressive cam and you can hear it/compare when you get here), Stiegemeier stage 3 port (July 2005 port date, 2.93/6 pulley combo, run it full time). Evans complete cooling unit on NPG+ fluid, with oil cooler built in the radiator. Rob said the Evans crap is working and is safely giving me another 2 degrees of timing. Accufab big oval TB. JLT high boost CAI. RR blower spacer, Stainless works full 3" exhaust and headers. Canton windage tray (suppost to add hp...).

I didn't do head porting or valve replacement. I'm going to go to a 5.4 Ford GT block and heads. The 4.6 cams will work in the 5.4 engine; I may have them slightly reground by crower for 100 bucks when the time comes.

I now have the SCT PRP and am slowly working up on the power but the cams created all kinds of little irritating drivability issues, mainly idle and startup issues that I'm more concerned about working out first.

I have zero problems with this. I will say right now Rob did an excellent job of it for such an aggressive cam grind and never dealing with it on a DOHC car like mine.

The reason I went with the FR500 cams was because I wanted to still try and pass CA emissions. I think there's still alot more left in this car though, plus it's only a 2.8upper, still have a lower to use at a later date when I get a fuel system that'll handle it since I'm already maxing the pumps out.

I'm registered in Montana, they don't do emissions :twisted: All of the family cars get listed through the old man up there for many, many reasons. AZ and CA suck ass.

I'm on a BAP with 60lb injectors as well.

The JDM car is amazing, don't know what they did to get that with the auto but props to them. Considering it ran like a 10flat at the MMFF Terminator shootout I'd say it's making damn good power.

To me it seems very simple what they did; they took their time and figured out the cams. IMO 99% of tuners can't tune for the cams in these cars.

I asked Beefcake about his cam specs multiple times and he ignored me, if I remember the mag article it was Comps with something like 230* of duration.

I would run FR500 cams in my car every day of the year before I put a set of comp cams in my Cobra. I think crower is way ahead of anyone offering a retail grind for these cars, unless you want Al Pappito/equivalent to do a custom grind for ya. JDM just does very minor regrinding to crowers cams from what I heard a long time ago at MF.com. Word was, a JDM stage 3 cam=crowers stage 2. Mabey you can add to this as your a mod over there and the whole JDM situation seemed a little "hush hush" to me.

EDIT: I have 270 duration, says right on my cam card that came from crower. A 230 duration is like a stage 1.5 crower cam...

Over all I think Gene hit the nail on the head, the blower just can't flow the air needed to make the cams really shine. If you look at N/A combos with cams they pickup mean power above 5K but yet that's just where the Eaton really starts to fall off. Hell, the FR500 valvetrain is suppose to be good to 7500, damn Eaton would explode and/or melt if I tried to spin it that fast...lol.

I took my 100 octane tune to 7000 RPM's on 2x 1/4 mile runs. It lost 10 MPH in trap speed compared to when I shifted at 5500 RPM's. Crowers stage 2 cams aren't suppost to change the power range at all, probably the same as the FR500 setup.

Can't wait to see what the car will do at 7000 RPM's with a twin screw holding steady boost.

The biggest thing that I think alot of power will come from is an optimized timing curve. I'm running a timing curve currently that everyother RWTD tuned Terminator runs. I would think that cams would slightly alter the amount of timing the motor would want based on previous experiences with other motors.

Which is exactly why I won't do a mail order tune on this car. It would literally take months of back and forth communication to even see a slight improvement over what I have now.

Since my tune isn't lean, I'm just going to wait and see what it does on a dynojet before commenting anymore on what is left in the tune. Many people on MF.com said I probably lost 40-50 hp at the wheels with the MT slicks on the car.

[Screamn03]

Mike- I accidentally edited your post when I though I was quoting it. Tried to repair it the best I can, sorry about this.
-50 BMG

[All mods listed here, writeup included:
http://saleenpower.com/forums/index....CODE=12&CID=52
Engine mods:
Crower stage 3 supercharged grind (grind stats are on their website, it's a real aggressive cam and you can hear it/compare when you get here), Stiegemeier stage 3 port (July 2005 port date, 2.93/6 pulley combo, run it full time). Evans complete cooling unit on NPG+ fluid, with oil cooler built in the radiator. Rob said the Evans crap is working and is safely giving me another 2 degrees of timing. Accufab big oval TB. JLT high boost CAI. RR blower spacer, Stainless works full 3" exhaust and headers. Canton windage tray (suppost to add hp...).

I didn't do head porting or valve replacement. I'm going to go to a 5.4 Ford GT block and heads. The 4.6 cams will work in the 5.4 engine; I may have them slightly reground by crower for 100 bucks when the time comes.

I was digging around some more on MF and found that you originally were going to go with the IIs, what made you switch to IIIs? Did you ever run the car with the IIs or did you change your order? Hell ya, GT 5.4, that'll be mean, really mean

I have zero problems with this. I will say right now Rob did an excellent job of it for such an aggressive cam grind and never dealing with it on a DOHC car like mine.

This is good to know, makes me feel dumb...lol. I have the startup issue resolved and almost have the rolling idle coming to a stop licked as well, other than that it seems to drive fine but it's no where near optimized yet.

I would run FR500 cams in my car every day of the year before I put a set of comp cams in my Cobra. I think crower is way ahead of anyone offering a retail grind for these cars, unless you want Al Pappito/equivalent to do a custom grind for ya. JDM just does very minor regrinding to crowers cams from what I heard a long time ago at MF.com. Word was, a JDM stage 3 cam=crowers stage 2. Mabey you can add to this as your a mod over there and the whole JDM situation seemed a little "hush hush" to me.

EDIT: I have 270 duration, says right on my cam card that came from crower. A 230 duration is like a stage 1.5 crower cam...

I don't know anything about the JDM stuff other than they won't sell them to you, you have to have them installed by them. SVTDubs had a set for sale at one point (that KenB from MD somehow got and installed way back when) but I think he kept them for his turbo project, that fuggin guy changes combos and benchraces more than anyone I know so I really have no idea wth he's doing. A friend of mine with a Works Whipple powered Lightning tells me that Jim is a crooke so I've never delt with them, but I'd take that with a grain of salt.

I meant 230* at .050", my bad. With this modular valvetrain cam specs can make your head hurt really quick since the rocker geometry doen't have a set ratio, so you can't think in terms of any other motor you've ever messed with (SB Fords, SB/BB Chevy, Pontiacs, LS1s in my case). According to Dgussin in that thread Beefcake had 106360s in the car, which are 265/267 Adv Duration, 230/232 .050 Duration, .475/.450 lift on a 116* sep as per Comp.

I find it interesting how Crower specs there cams:
http://www.crower.com/cat/domestic/f...amshafts.shtml
...giving both lobe and valve figures. Do you know what the lobe seperation is on your cams?
My FR500 specs are: 258I/254E AdvDur 204/214@.050 .472"/.472" 109LSA

Being blown I dunno if you can pass air at below .050 lifts but I would assume you could so maybe that's why they still seem to work well? This is something I've never looked at until now BTW. I'll also mention that I installed the cams straight up, did you do the same with the Crowers?

Dunno if you ever saw Dave King's post about 1000hp+ Modulars, he said this in regards to cam specs:
"2. Don't go crazy with cams, and keep duration under 230@50. These motors don't need a lot of duration. Excessive duration or overlap will kill these engines. I seen Joe Stewart lose 50 rwhp with the wrong cams. Run the centerline at 116. If you run regrind cams make sure that you check the basecircle on all 4 cams as they will vary greatly. This can throw a big wrench in your tuning."

Also, why don't you care for Comp?

Which is exactly why I won't do a mail order tune on this car. It would literally take months of back and forth communication to even see a slight improvement over what I have now.

Since my tune isn't lean, I'm just going to wait and see what it does on a dynojet before commenting anymore on what is left in the tune. Many people on MF.com said I probably lost 40-50 hp at the wheels with the MT slicks on the car.

Email Order/Forum Order can work good for a cookie cutter car like I once had. If you are doing a pulley, filter, CB then I wouldn't hesitate to call on a respected tuner for a Email Order/Forum Order tune. But if you choose to do something different like you or I then I feel that you really need to DIY or take it to someone that can dial it in, every car is going to be slightly different in this case and the only real way to get it right is to have the person that's doing the tuning have the car in front of them.

[Lucafu1]

Some good post and info in this thread. I just bought the PRP after a bad day at the track and after some data logging with these mail order tunes. Oh well you get what you pat for.I hope to learn this software so I can get a good tune and start sprayin. I dont have to worry about cams, Im sure that its a PIA.

BTW you will loose power on the Dyno with slicks or tires that are under pressure. It doesnt mean anything to me since I dont care much about dyno numbers. ETs and MPH is what I want. But yeah low air pressure can throw some low numbers and have you thinking something may be wrong. I would get some good pressure in the tires and every dyno run make sure there at the same. Its just due to the rolling resistance.

Later

Luis

[50 BMG]

I was digging around some more on MF and found that you originally were going to go with the IIs, what made you switch to IIIs? Did you ever run the car with the IIs or did you change your order? Hell ya, GT 5.4, that'll be mean, really mean.

I called Jared at Lethal at the last min and changed them, it was during the group buy. It's when I decided to go twin screw for sure. The 3's also seem to add more power than the 2's but only at the peak. If I did it all over a gain I would have done the 2's; based on what many people said on both sites, they seem to have way more torque in the midrange.

This is good to know, makes me feel dumb...lol. I have the startup issue resolved and almost have the rolling idle coming to a stop licked as well, other than that it seems to drive fine but it's no where near optimized yet.

Might want to drive down to SVC while your here and see if Rob will talk to you for 5 or 10 minuets pro bono and give you some help if need be. I remembered, I have a single drivability issue. I must give it a touch of throttle (like 1250 RPMs) from a dead stop or it will die.

I don't know anything about the JDM stuff other than they won't sell them to you, you have to have them installed by them. SVTDubs had a set for sale at one point (that KenB from MD somehow got and installed way back when) but I think he kept them for his turbo project, that fuggin guy changes combos and benchraces more than anyone I know so I really have no idea wth he's doing. A friend of mine with a Works Whipple powered Lightning tells me that Jim is a crooke so I've never delt with them, but I'd take that with a grain of salt.

Interesting...and Erik Jones has nothing on the rampant benchracing in Phoenix.

I meant 230* at .050", my bad. With this modular valvetrain cam specs can make your head hurt really quick since the rocker geometry doen't have a set ratio, so you can't think in terms of any other motor you've ever messed with (SB Fords, SB/BB Chevy, Pontiacs, LS1s in my case). According to Dgussin in that thread Beefcake had 106360s in the car, which are 265/267 Adv Duration, 230/232 .050 Duration, .475/.450 lift on a 116* sep as per Comp.

If those stats are at the cam that is a really weird grind or they put huge N/A cams in there...I mean that is a -shitload- of duration at .050. Thats like crower stage 4 at the cam specs right there, with the duration @ .050 still noticably higher on the comp grind than crowers stage 4.

I would have liked to have heard that car in person. That car probably couldn't even run right from light to light.

I find it interesting how Crower specs there cams:
http://www.crower.com/cat/domestic/f...amshafts.shtml
...giving both lobe and valve figures. Do you know what the lobe seperation is on your cams?
My FR500 specs are: 258I/254E AdvDur 204/214@.050 .472"/.472" 109LSA

Crowers website is weird to read. Some of those stats are at the valve ...

My specs at the cam from my individual card (intake first, exhaust second): 258/258, 212/212 @ .050, .269/.269 lift, 114* lobe seperation. If need be now you can compare those specs to crowers website and you'll quickly see which website specs are at the valve.

Being blown I dunno if you can pass air at below .050 lifts but I would assume you could so maybe that's why they still seem to work well? This is something I've never looked at until now BTW. I'll also mention that I installed the cams straight up, did you do the same with the Crowers?

I had Rob @ SVC (who tuned the car) install the cams. DOHC cam installs, tuning, head porting, and certain shortblock projects are the only thing I'd pay someone to do on my Cobra cause I have little knowledge in these areas.

Dunno if you ever saw Dave King's post about 1000hp+ Modulars, he said this in regards to cam specs:
"2. Don't go crazy with cams, and keep duration under 230@50. These motors don't need a lot of duration. Excessive duration or overlap will kill these engines. I seen Joe Stewart lose 50 rwhp with the wrong cams. Run the centerline at 116. If you run regrind cams make sure that you check the basecircle on all 4 cams as they will vary greatly. This can throw a big wrench in your tuning."

I'll keep that in mind. I'd never go with a bigger cam spec for FI than I have right now anyways; crowers base turbogrind is exactly the same as mine except they shave 10 degrees off the exhaust side.

230 @ .050 must be INSANE on these cars. Makes me glad I didn't go with comp if the stats David Gussin gave and you provided above are correct.

VT offers Crower and comp, but take a look at these Comp supercharged cam specs from VT's site:
http://www.vtengines.com/store/index...products_id=42 mild cam. Stage 1?
http://www.vtengines.com/store/index...products_id=43 real hot, notice the duration @ 050. Stage 2?
http://www.vtengines.com/store/index...products_id=44 HUGE duration @ 050. Stage 3?

Now comparing those advertised #'s to crowers advertised #'s somethign seems obvious...Crowers stage 3 to what I assume is comps stage 3 (hence the question marks after the links above). Crower is using more advanced duration on both sides and has much more lift, especially on the exhaust side. The comps make it up with the HUGE durations @ 050.

Dave King is one of the very few people I would listen to on the internet, and if what he says about duration @ 050 is true...

Also, why don't you care for Comp?

Cause I haven't seen good results with them on our engines compared to the crower/jdm results. Plus the above information in this post.

Email Order/Forum Order can work good for a cookie cutter car like I once had. If you are doing a pulley, filter, CB then I wouldn't hesitate to call on a respected tuner for a Email Order/Forum Order tune. But if you choose to do something different like you or I then I feel that you really need to DIY or take it to someone that can dial it in, every car is going to be slightly different in this case and the only real way to get it right is to have the person that's doing the tuning have the car in front of them.

Which is exactly why I paid SVC 300 bucks to tune my car. They got the stupid cam issues dead on right the first time, the question is how much they got in power from them. SVC's dyno is retarded when you try to compare their dyno results to everyone else's dyno's in Phoenix, so I have no idea what this car really puts down. I'm not trying to chase # on a dyno or at the strip but I just want to know...lol

[Screamn03]

This should be interesting:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2...ore-41968.html