S197 performance enhancements

[C0braFan]

Hi all,

Thought I'd create a new thread here on a subject that I'm very interested in now. I would like to customize my 06 GT engine as much as possible without going to a power adder. I am eager to see how much I can do with this great engine, and looking for suggestions.

I'm sure you are all familiar with the usual suggestions: cold air intake, custom tune, mufflers, x-pipe, headers. That pretty much sums it up for the bolt-on stuff, and I'm eager to do these things (just installed FlowMaster American Thunder mufflers and love the improvement!).

But I'm talking about more dramatic changes once these trivial mods are done. Like new heads and camshafts. I've heard Comp Cams has 3 new sets of cams for the 4.6 3V worth upwards of 30 hp. I'm eager to try that out, but I also wonder if a pair of new heads would fit on this engine?

FRPP has listed FR-500C heads that work on the 4.6 race engine, which is stroked to 5.0. The heads are advertised as 4.6 4V heads for the 05-07, and are worth +60 hp. Does anyone have any idea if these heads are compatible with a stock 4.6 3V engine? Or could that be an error in the catalog? The price is not bad at all, especially when you consider the cost of a supercharger, which I don't really want to do.

A bigger question is this: Are these heads from the 2000 Cobra R, or from the 2004 Mach1? I'd assume these are R heads, since they're being used on the FR500. $1500 plus the cams is very affordable, and with the other mods we're talking 400 hp without a power adder--and I would love that.

[Ethan@S3M]

The heads you have listed will only work on the 4v mod motor. We have a customer with a 05 that has 4.10's, axel back, x pipe with longtubes, CAI, and a good tune and the car haul ass. I think you would be better off just buying a Saleen or Roush supercharger insted of spending money on heads and cams. You'd end up with more hp in the long run.
Ethan

[C0braFan]

Oh, that's a shame. Thank you for the tip (scratch the 4V heads off my list!). But like I said, I want to see what the 3V can do N/A, without a 200 pound power adder. Not only that, but 5 grand for an intercooled S/C is a rip off. Niche product = high price, yada yada, but it's still grossly overpriced for basically an air compressor. These things aren't exactly rocket science, it's a low volume problem.

How about port matching and a polish job on the 3V heads. That should be worth 30 hp, which combined with new cams, and other upgrades, might take it up to 400.

[Ethan@S3M]

Ya port matching your heads and polishing will probly make some more power but your gonna be spending a good amount of money. You should price it out and see what the difference is compared between sc and n/a. I bet it will be around the same cause changing heads and cams on the mod motors is pretty involved and labor isnt cheap now a days.

[Indy]

Ya port matching your heads and polishing will probly make some more power but your gonna be spending a good amount of money. You should price it out and see what the difference is compared between sc and n/a. I bet it will be around the same cause changing heads and cams on the mod motors is pretty involved and labor isnt cheap now a days.

I agree with Ethan on this. I think fox lake has ported 3v heads now give them a call and see what they have to say.

[C0braFan]

There's nothing on their web site to indicate they work on 3V heads. I wouldn't want my engine to be a guinea pig.

[Indy]

In the Feb. issue of MM&FF, they said that Fox Lake already had a CNC program for porting the 3 valve heads. Maybe they haven't put it on the web site yet. I would call them and see if they are still in the testing stages or if they have a finished program. Good luck.

[Radeon]

JDM also has some good CNC heads. Im sure you could get some good power by doing cai, pullies, heads, cams, exhaust, tune, etc., but why would you want to put all that money into a n/a setup when you could spend just as much on a 2.6 KB and have all the power your shortblock could handle? Just my opinion though. Whatever you choose, Im sure you'll be happy with the results.

[C0braFan]

Well the reason why I want to stick with n/a is because the supercharger systems are grossly overpriced. Why does, essentially, a big air compressor cost $5 grand? I'm pretty sure the mods I'm talking about can be done for half that.

[Ethan@S3M]

1685.00 ported heads(shipped)
600.00 cams
675.00 intake and tuner
279.95 throttle body
450.00 headers
350.00 axel back
289.00 mid pipe
239.00 pullies
Total 4567.00 not including shipping on everything else and paying someone to install the heads and cams. Then you got to get a tune. So you'd probly be more than a blower and not have as much HP as a blown car.

[Radeon]

Well the reason why I want to stick with n/a is because the supercharger systems are grossly overpriced. Why does, essentially, a big air compressor cost $5 grand? I'm pretty sure the mods I'm talking about can be done for half that.


I agree with you that superchargers are somewhat overpriced. But in the case of the 2.6L Kenne Bell, you get the cai, MAF, injectors, intercooler, BAP, and tune. The kits for the S197s are basically like turbo kits. They come with everything you need. Thats were the added cost comes from.

If paying for labor, it will cost you between $4k-$5K just to do the heads. The CNC ported JDM heads are $2995 if you send yours and $3995 without cores. If you do cams, thats another $2K or so. Basically if you do all the work yourself, heads/cams are going to cost you around $4K or so. Then add in the $ a custom dyno tune, etc and your probably around $5k or so. Spend $600 more and have a KB that will offer way more power potential.

Im not hear to tell you your wrong or anything like that. Just trying to save you some money. Spend $5K or so and have an extra 75 horses or so, or spend $5600 and have an extra 150-200 horses with alot more possible with a built shortblock and a pulley change. Hope this post helps.

[Ethan@S3M]

The roush and saleen kits also come with plugs, tune, injectors,ect. Its really not a bad buy for about 5k.

[C0braFan]

1685.00 ported heads(shipped)
600.00 cams
675.00 intake and tuner
279.95 throttle body
450.00 headers
350.00 axel back
289.00 mid pipe
239.00 pullies
Total 4567.00 not including shipping on everything else and paying someone to install the heads and cams. Then you got to get a tune. So you'd probly be more than a blower and not have as much HP as a blown car.

Ethan, I appreciate the breakdown, and understand your point. The thing is, though, I wouldn't include all of those things in this price comparison, because they're kind of a given anyway. CAI/tuner, headers, axle backs, x-pipe, pullies. (I don't think a bigger TB produces any power, so I wouldn't do that).

Most guys who do a S/C will do most of those things too, wouldn't they? So, I guess I was making a case for an alternative to a S/C with those upgrades already a given. Your argument holds up very well for a stock engine, though.

In that case, CNC and cams, I believe, will put the 4.6 3V up to 400, and we're talking about $2300 plus labor.

[BurnTire]

Either way you will have a faster car. You may be less on parts cost on the head setup, but you will be way higher on the labor. A supercharger can be done in your garage if you have the skills. The nice thing about a supercharger is you can up the boost with a pulley swap.

[C0braFan]

Thought I'd Re: this thread again after a 6 month hiatus. :)

I finally found the price point I was looking for in a CAI/tuner combo, with custom tunes included. After reading about Evolution Performance in Hot Rod last month, I visited their web site and found what I was looking for: SCT XCal2 & JLT 2 intake, for $525. Here's a list (http://www.evoperform.com/mustang_performance.php?mustang_parts_id=80)of all their custom tune package deals. From this list of tunes, you can choose three to have pre-installed on the XCal with your order:

87 Octane
89 Octane
91 Octane
91 Octane Xtreme
93 Octane
93 Octane Xtreme
100 Octane Race Fuel
100 Octane Race Fuel Extreme

The 100 tune is worth 45 HP. The 91/93 tunes are good for 35 RWHP/30 RWTQ. What is that at the flywheel....about 40 BHP? I estimate my scoop and Flowmasters are worth 10 hp, so suffice it to say, I'll have to get it dyno'd to see where it's at. I'm aiming for 400 BHP N/A, one mod at a time. :)

By the way, Evo's GT500 that was featured in Hot Rod is now up for sale on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150082443766&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005). Pretty sweet...a 700HP GT500 going for about the same price as an average GT500 was a few months ago. And they got it into the 9's after the Hot Rod article went to print.

[50 BMG]

Still trying all the N/A mods you listed back in August?

[C0braFan]

Still trying all the N/A mods you listed back in August?

I will not be doing the heads because I learned from this thread (http://www.mustangforums.com/m_2575106/tm.htm)that the cams alone net similar results, and it's not beneficial to do heads + the stage3 cams together. (I can't wait, based on what people are saying about them! I do my own work, so labor isn't a cost.)

According to JDM and Livernois, ported heads will give you 40-50 HP, the Cams will give you 30-40. But together, you only get 50-60, at exhorbitant cost. If you plan to S/C down the road, do the heads. For a purely N/A car, go with cams. Makes sense. I'm definitely doing the cams.

Got the cat-backs out of the way, and got the intake and tuner now.

Headers will be my next upgrade, with a mid-pipe. I'd much prefer shorties, but haven't done the research on full length headers yet. It would be awesome if shorties will net 20 rwhp. Gotta research it..

Last mod will be pulleys and fuel injectors, which will put it over 400 BHP, my target goal. I'll be done screwing with the engine at this point and will start tweaking suspension.

[BLK03SVT]

Have you thought about maybe doing a local dyno-tune in lieu of the mail order tune?

[50 BMG]

According to JDM and Livernois, ported heads will give you 40-50 HP, the Cams will give you 30-40. But together, you only get 50-60, at exhorbitant cost. If you plan to S/C down the road, do the heads. For a purely N/A car, go with cams. Makes sense. I'm definitely doing the cams.


Ya if you have a shelf grind cam and generic (or stage X as they call it) porting done. Not that it makes any difference; whats important is addressing what cfm intake and T/B will deliver for your combo. I doubt the stock 3V intake is anywhere near up to the task up in the high RPM's where this engine will make power. Wilson could always make you one, or you could port the crap out of a lower sully and slap a carb on like the big hitter N/A boys do :bounce:

FWIW, I did a cam only swap and didn't port his heads at the same time. Every time I drove the car I regretted not having the heads and the rest of the valvetrain upgraded at the same time. Needless to say I'm doing it right this time: Custom ground cams matched to the rest of the valvetrain, -fully- ported heads, 1mm+ and upgraded valves, increased compression, increased bore and stroke, aluminum block, lubrication and cooling upgrades, hand made headers + exhaust blah blah blah...

If I was you, I'd call Al Pappito or Scott at VT engines and pick their brain. They have the fastest N/A modulars in the country (both go 9.2 @ 140+ MPH and will be in the 8's next season).

Edit: If your really serious/can afford it, I'd slap some Ford GT heads on there. Fully ported = 400/330 cfm @ 28* and .500 lift. If you had a valvetrain and a shortblock to take advantage of it your car would make stupid N/A power.

[C0braFan]

Those are some good suggestions for someone wanting to build a dragstrip monster. ;)

[Justin@VMP]

I've seen camshafts make 40-50rwhp on stock heads and stock exhaust.

[AZSonicSnake]

dang, thats some impressive gains on the 3 valve motor....:yes:

[C0braFan]

I've seen camshafts make 40-50rwhp on stock heads and stock exhaust.


Those numbers are far more than I'd hoped for, given my target of 400 N/A! Any more details you can provide on the particular setup would be greatly appreciated. I was expecting 40 BHP from Comp Cams stage3 cams. But with stock exhaust? That's extraordinary. I would think headers would be a must.