Kenne Bell tunes GOOD or BAD ?????

[Cobra GT]

[BurnTire]

Get a custom tune.

[Cobra GT]

I guess i should have posted the article i am referring on custom tunes. I have a different outlook on custom tunes after this article, and had no idea that maf could handle adjusting minor mods as they claim. They are saying headers, mild cams, x pipe, cai not all at the same time but as individual mods the maf will adjust a/f.

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/Supercharger_ReTuned.pdf

[BurnTire]

There is no way to know if a tune is safe unless you can datalog all parameters including air fuel. You do not want adaptive learning on (computer controlled adjustments) under WOT.

[Cobra GT]

As far as being safe that can be done with pulls on the dyno with wideband, but “local custom tuners” do not get into parameter like the manufacture of the product, they can’t afford the high dollar equipment, they are working off a $35 wideband sensor for a Volvo. They can’t afford the OEM air/fuel monitoring equipment, high speed mass storage data logging, high dollar scan tools not to mention they probably have just one dyno. They are tweaking someone else’s tune, if they were to truly tune do you think they could tune your car in a few dyno pulls. I consider them to be “custom tweakers” that tweak your pocket more than your car. It takes longer to tune a car which is testing and recalibrating over a hundred of parameters than they can do in three dyno pulls. Check this article and see if you feel the same way about your “custom tweaker”.

http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/Supercharger_ReTuned.pdf

[BurnTire]

If you want to get a mail order tune go for it.
I have a custom Burntire tune in my car. My car is built, tuned, and driven by me.
SCT Advantage software comes with the stock tune for all vehicles are used in their tuning software. That is your starting point. Then you work into all the mods for the car.

The datalogging abilities of todays computers is far faster than anything an automotive PCM can throw at them.

Again get your mail order tune. Plug it into the car and hope for the best.
There is no way to determine how your car is reacting to the tune without datalogging.

There is no way to calibrate your MAF Transfer curve without datalogging.

How many 9 and 10 second 03/04 Cobras do you think are running tunes without being datalogged or on the dyno?

[Cobra GT]

That’s great burntire, I am glad you know what you are doing. If you build every tune for every one of your customers from scratch with every parameter that goes into doing a custom tuning you are doing it right. I am saying that every time some one puts a set of long tube headers or cai, or even mild cams they don’t need to run out and spend money on a custom tune. The MAF meter will recalibrate that minor adjustment. When someone like KB a manufacture that designs, R&D’s there product and spends $100000 of dollars on getting it right that a custom tuner can ring out one or two more hp or torque than for that matter than the person that built and designed the supercharger. I would not call it a mail order tune if I give my mods to them and they give me a tune or burn a chip canned tune, they are trying to keep unscrupulious tuners from ripping off there tunes and caliming the for there own so they can tweak it and call it there own.. They build tunes from scratch with far better metering devices that most custom tune shops can not afford. There databases are far more advance than your run of the mill “custom tune” shop. By the way how long does it take you to build your custom tune, how long and how many dyno pulls to get your car right. Is that the same amount of time you use to “custom tune” your customer’s cars? Just a thought. I think people don’t give the MAF enough credit for it doing is job. Peace.

[BurnTire]

I am not in the business. I tune my own car only.
Reading the Gospel of tuning from someone who wants your money is not a good practice.

Now time for some information. This data is based on a Forced Induction Vehicle.

A MAF meter does not auto correct for changes to the car. All a MAF does is sends a signal to the computer. The adaptive control function of the tune will make the changes.

When running in closed loop (idle, cruising around) the MAF and O2 sensors provide data to the PCM which is always trying to achieve a 14.64:1 A/F

When running in open loop (WOT, startup) data to the PCM is provided from the MAF only.

A stock 99-04 Mustang tune will take data from closed loop and apply adaptive corrections to Open Loop (Not a good idea when you mod the car). You need a custom tune for the changes especially in a forced induction application.

The stock Ford tune learns data from a few cells and applies it to the remainder of the cells. These cells are usually at the lower RPM's. So you make some changes to the car and the tune is now rich in the lower RPM range. The stock tunes adaptive control will pull fuel to achieve 14.64, but it will also pull fuel when in WOT (Not good on a supercharged car). BOOM!

I use SCT Advantage software to tune. I start with their base tune and eventually end up with the final tune after many pulls. If I make changes to the car I modify the current tune to handle the changes.

SCT has the ability to disable adaptive control for WOT tuning.

You want to tune the car for driveability and safety. You want to be able to cruise around fine and also transition to WOT and go to the red-line fine.

You do not want the car looking at low RPM closed loop and applying changes to WOT open loop (Boom). You want to tune the MAF Transfer Function for WOT with adaptive control off.

The Adaptive Control Learning Function does not Work in WOT. The car does not learning anything in WOT. There is no way for the MAF to make changes for cams, headers, etc in WOT.

You modern computer PC is much faster than an automotive PCM. The PC can datalog everything the car puts out.

A Ford narrow band O2 sensor is super slow and can not provide the accurate data like a wideband.

[Cobra GT]

[BurnTire]

I agree with almost everything you say but you are taking it to the extreme (14.64) 14.7
14.64 is not being crazy. That is the stoich rating for standard gasoline, but I am sure you knew that already. You can ready about stoich ratings here, but it doesn't matter. I bet there is a magical tune that auto corrects for fuel type and quality with stock 02 sensors. :z7shysterical:
http://www.highperformancestangs.com/forums/showthread.php/9682-Race-Gas-Stoich-Rating-Tuning-Considerations

First you said the MAF will make changes and you don't need to retune. Wrong Wrong Wrong. The car does not learn anything and can not correct anything in Open Loop.

I was talking about the stock tunes to explain to you how the adaptive control works, but I am sure you have a through understanding now.


There is no point in listing all of them because you can do most of them with a handheld tuner anyway. Yea right. I would like to see you change injector slopes and pulse width, MAF type, adaptive fuel, base fuel, stoich rating, fuel pump voltage tables, MAF transfer function, correct tip detonation, tune out hesitation with a hand held. You can only change a few settings with a hand held. You can manipulate 1,000s with Advantage.

My tune has 67 major tuning categories changes compared to the stock tune. When you get into each individual table there are 100's of changes. Does that sound like tweaking to you?



Example 2 -97 Cobras both with a set of Kooks long tube headers, do you think that both of those car will take a different tune and make a difference.
Hell Yea especially in a supercharged application. Do you realize that the position and location of the MAF effects the A/F? Do you realize that all MAF's are not calibrated exactly the same? Do you realize that injectors have variances in flow rates from car to car?

Do you realize that there is no magical tune that can auto correct for these variances?

Do some research on the MAF Transfer Function and report your findings.

Plugging in a chip or flash tune and not datalogging to check the tune is STUPID!!!!!!!!!

[AZSonicSnake]

if you know it all why are you asking us for help? i don't ever understand when people ask for help and the belittle everything a person is offering to try and help with. wow. go ahead, skimp on the most important part of your car and see how that works out for you. me personally, i will stick to a tuning professional to tune my car. and thus far it was been perfect. my car makes a good number on the dyno and on the track. and my tune was custom built from the ground up. not some bs like your mentioning. in my humble opinion running a tune that someone in a different state built is just asking to buy a new motor. there is no way to recreate the enviornment from 3 states away. but, hey, maybe your wallet is alot deeper and you like buying motors. to each thier own!

[05mustangman]

I would highly suggest taking it to Performance Solutions and let them do some dyno tuning. Like stated from burntire canned tunes cannot adjust all parameters for your car. Devin from PSR is a True professional as he has been custom tuning cars (alot of members from this site including mine) for 20+ years. He definitely knows what hes doing. And he does check all parameters and you can even watch him do it. I have a had a canned tune before and it was good for my car then. But honestly nothing beats a dyno tune. Then you can sleep better not having to worry about blowing something up in your car because it was tuned incorrectly. The only thing canned tunes really tune for is your gear ratio, tire size, and current mods. That cant adjust all your parameters correctly.

But like stated before, Its your choice in the end.

[BurnTire]

That would be a long drive from Louisiana.

[rdrumm]

First... peace all... my lord!
Burntire, I have a question... 05 V6 w/ a super chip, K&N filter and Bassani dual w/ a X Crossover. The tuner is married to the car. I was thinking of getting a Dyno Tune. Idle is a little off when I put it in park, otherwise Im driving pretty well. Looks good and I'm happy with the new exhaust. Would the tune effect the hand held tuner and would I now be married to my new tuner?
Question two: The stock exhaust comes w/ two vibration damperners, one at the front, one at the stock muffler. I now feel the exhaust vibration. I tried to get answers from Bassani... no responce. I may just go to the factory, they are here in Anaheim.
Any thoughts would be great!
Thanks!

[05mustangman]

oops. LOL! didnt realize the location! lol.

[05mustangman]

That would be a long drive from Louisiana.

oops. lol. didnt realize the location. Lol!

[rdrumm]

Anaheim is ok... right?

[05mustangman]

Anaheim rocks! Socal is awesome!

[rdrumm]

Good to hear!
Burntire, Jeff, I'm going to the range Thursday w/ my son. I post real 20 yard targets.
Ex B-52 tail gunner, AFGA # 4014.
Happy shooting!
:biglaugh:

[BurnTire]

First... peace all... my lord!
Burntire, I have a question... 05 V6 w/ a super chip, K&N filter and Bassani dual w/ a X Crossover. The tuner is married to the car. I was thinking of getting a Dyno Tune. Idle is a little off when I put it in park, otherwise Im driving pretty well. Looks good and I'm happy with the new exhaust. Would the tune effect the hand held tuner and would I now be married to my new tuner?
Question two: The stock exhaust comes w/ two vibration damperners, one at the front, one at the stock muffler. I now feel the exhaust vibration. I tried to get answers from Bassani... no responce. I may just go to the factory, they are here in Anaheim.
Any thoughts would be great!
Thanks!

What RPM does your car idle at?

I don't know anything about the Superchip stuff. Is it a plug-in chip or do you load a tune with the handheld?

If it is a handheld then you are loading a tune from Superchips into the car. I assume you can make a few changes to the tune from your handheld? If so when you make those changes you upload the tune again and it re flashes the PCM.

If you got a dyno tune it will replace the Superchips tune. I am not sure how superchips stuff works, but the new dyno tune would have to be loaded into the hand held in order to utilize the handheld to make parameter changes. This is how SCT Flash Hand Helds Work.

The Handheld tuner should still work, but if you used it to change things it would clear the dyno tune and replace it with the old Superchips tune.

Check your exhaust to see if it is touching something. Rattles are usually due to touching something it shouldn't.

[BurnTire]

Good to hear!
Burntire, Jeff, I'm going to the range Thursday w/ my son. I post real 20 yard targets.
Ex B-52 tail gunner, AFGA # 4014.
Happy shooting!
:biglaugh:

Post up some pics.

This was my 74 year old father at 7 yards a month ago (Glock 17). He complains he can't see the sights well anymore.

[rdrumm]

Not a plug in chip, just a hand held tunner. I'll re-tune and see what happens, see if there's a setting.. Didn't see one? Changes are possible, I can set certain things, didn't see an idle setting in park, I'll try again tomorrow. Put it in gear and it's fine! Exhaust is not touching, it's reverbation in the cabin, straight through baffels not chambers like Flowmaster. Like the old time glass packs. Don't think the 4.0 is smooth enough enough w/out them. Like I said the original set up had vibration damperners... a strange set-up! Never knew what those things were till now, now I know.
Bassani is no help, but I going to have a talk with one of the Engineers.
Thanks, See you at the WinterNationals!

[rdrumm]

Oh My!
I'll never see 74!
Good for him!

[BurnTire]

Thanks, See you at the WinterNationals!

You going to the finals in Nov?

[rdrumm]

For the last 15 years... can't lie... I missed the last one. Just lazy I guess!
Kids were out of town, didn't want to go by myself!
Have all the event pins to show!
Go to the Nationals as well! Great to be 20 min's away!!!
Let me know if you need anything local!
I can help!
Yes I will be there this year, can't wait!
Weather should be good, I've gone in the rain as well!
:biglaugh:

[rdrumm]

Hotels are very close, and very nice, and like I said it's 20 min's away. A good drive and don't forget about Angelo's. A drive in with roller skating servers!
:biglaugh:

[BurnTire]

We stay at the Sheraton Fairplex. We will have to check out Angelo's.