E85 tuning

[az2k1]

anybody here ever look in to tuning with E85....

if you are tuned on E85 what are the power gains ??

[BurnTire]

anybody here ever look in to tuning with E85....

if you are tuned on E85 what are the power gains ?? I will going to E85 next year. On forced induction motors it seems like a 10% gain can be expected due to the much cooler burn and reduced cylinder temps. Keep in mind you will need fuel system upgrades as it will take about 30 to 40% more fuel at WOT.

[Mr. Austin]

Why so much?

[IMSHAKN]

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3378/alcohol_its_not_just_for_sippin_anymore.aspx

[BurnTire]

Why so much? It has a lower stoich rating so you have to inject much more for a correct burn.

http://www.e85performance.net/forums/

[Mr. Austin]

Very nice. I learned something new. Thanks Burntire! And thanks IMSHAKN that answered alot of questions!

[az2k1]

I will going to E85 next year. On forced induction motors it seems like a 10% gain can be expected due to the much cooler burn and reduced cylinder temps. Keep in mind you will need fuel system upgrades as it will take about 30 to 40% more fuel at WOT.
o cool ....a friend of my is going to come down from New Mexico to tune some car with E-85 . He wanted me to see if there were 3 on more guys that wanted to get there cars tune . His name is Dave @ Hellion motorsports and yes he is a great tuner thats who tune my car ...

[WildBill]

Why so much?

Very simple. E85 has less BTU per unit than regular fuel.

[WildBill]

o cool ....a friend of my is going to come down from New Mexico to tune some car with E-85 . He wanted me to see if there were 3 on more guys that wanted to get there cars tune . His name is Dave @ Hellion motorsports and yes he is a great tuner thats who tune my car ...

Just make sure you have the fuel system to support the additional fuel needed. That could mean bigger injectors, fuel lines and pumps.
E85 is nice, but pump supplies are limited and e85 can be very inconsistently mixed at the pump, it is very hygroscopic(water loving) and the ratios do change from winter to summer.

I really wouldn't bother using it with a N/A engine unless it was a specifically built with at least higher compression to take advantage of the higher octane to regain some fuel efficiency lost by going to e85.

[Rev'n Kevin]

Ok Boys and Girls, today we will learn a new word and it's true meaning...

hygroscopic.
(1) Possessing a marked ability to accelerate the condensation of water vapor; applied to condensation nuclei composed of salts that yield aqueous solutions of a very low equilibrium vapor pressure compared with that of pure water at the same temperature. (2) Pertaining to a substance whose physical characteristics are appreciably altered by effects of water vapor. (3) Pertaining to water absorbed by dry soil minerals from the atmosphere; the amounts depend on the physicochemical character of the surfaces, and increase with rising relative humidity.

That was for everyone except WB, as he was in the Navy and knows a lot about water.

Sorry Bill, but I'm up late too and could not resist, lol

[IMSHAKN]

Ok Boys and Girls, today we will learn a new word and it's true meaning...

hygroscopic.
(1) Possessing a marked ability to accelerate the condensation of water vapor; applied to condensation nuclei composed of salts that yield aqueous solutions of a very low equilibrium vapor pressure compared with that of pure water at the same temperature. (2) Pertaining to a substance whose physical characteristics are appreciably altered by effects of water vapor. (3) Pertaining to water absorbed by dry soil minerals from the atmosphere; the amounts depend on the physicochemical character of the surfaces, and increase with rising relative humidity.

That was for everyone except WB, as he was in the Navy and knows a lot about water.

Sorry Bill, but I'm up late too and could not resist, lol

Lol, tell me about it. That's the one thing about E85 that I've never liked. But unfortunately it's a property of the fuel due to its chemical composition. I hate having to fight this with many of the chemicals I work with in the lab. Knowing how big of a problem it really is and having seen / experienced problems with contamination in the lab, it'd scare me to rely on this fuel.

Water contamination of the fuel = bad. The more water the fuel absorbs the more you decrease its energy content. Making the potential benefits of the fuel to not be fully realized.

[ASUSMC]

Lol, tell me about it. That's the one thing about E85 that I've never liked. But unfortunately it's a property of the fuel due to its chemical composition. I hate having to fight this with many of the chemicals I work with in the lab. Knowing how big of a problem it really is and having seen / experienced problems with contamination in the lab, it'd scare me to rely on this fuel.

Water contamination of the fuel = bad. The more water the fuel absorbs the more you decrease its energy content. Making the potential benefits of the fuel to not be fully realized.

Could you counteract this by putting some sort of water filter on the fuel similar to a Diesel?

[WildBill]

Could you counteract this by putting some sort of water filter on the fuel similar to a Diesel?

Nope.........It's like brake fluid. It just absorbs it.

[BurnTire]

Well lets not go on the goggle E85 moisture bandwagon myth. If you fill an unsealed tank and let it sit for months it may attract moisture. Most modern cars have a sealed fuel system. Not really much of an issue in the dry climate we live in if it wasn't sealed. E85 has a proven record in race cars. No corrosion, not moisture problems, etc. If the vehicle is driven regularly and you keep fresh E85 in the tank you should not have any problems. When ethanol gets mixed with gasoline the moisture absorption rate falls substantially. It takes a bunch of moisture to get phase separation with E85.

[WildBill]

Well lets not go on the goggle E85 moisture bandwagon myth. If you fill an unsealed tank and let it sit for months it may attract moisture. Most modern cars have a sealed fuel system. Not really much of an issue in the dry climate we live in if it wasn't sealed. E85 has a proven record in race cars. No corrosion, not moisture problems, etc. If the vehicle is driven regularly and you keep fresh E85 in the tank you should not have any problems. When ethanol gets mixed with gasoline the moisture absorption rate falls substantially. It takes a bunch of moisture to get phase separation with E85.
There is no dang MYTH about e85 absorbing moisture.
But gas station tank are not sealed and no one mentioned phase separation. You would notice changes in running fuel well before you get to that point.
SURE it proven in race cars. They damn sure don't pump from the local gas station. They use fuel in sealed drums fulled at the refinery.

[az2k1]

this week'n Dave tune my boys Cobra w/K.B 2.2L and made 660hp @ 19psi and a 12.5 a/f so we backed it off because lack of fuel so back to the drawing borad .. yes need more fuel ...... but it made power ....

[BurnTire]

LOL. Give it a break Bill.
There are many sub 10 second cars using the pumps stuff.
I hope the flex fuel vehicle I own doesn't blow up anytime soon after the thousands of miles I have driven it on E85. I bet it has a few gallons of water in the tank because the "real man of genius" read about it on google.

[BurnTire]

this week'n Dave tune my boys Cobra w/K.B 2.2L and made 660hp @ 19psi and a 12.5 a/f so we backed it off because lack of fuel so back to the drawing borad .. yes need more fuel ...... but it made power .... Look for about a 10% gain over regular gas. What size injectors does he have in the car?

[IMSHAKN]

Jeff, not to be a dick, but you'd be amazed with how readily Ethanol absorbs water. Ethanol is one of many things I use in the lab and it's something that we frequently have issues with becoming contaminated with water. Same reason why it's VERY difficult to obtain pure ethanol through distillation. For you so called internet smarties I'll let ya figure out how you can obtain pure ethanol...good luck keeping that pure as well. :laughing:

I don't care what BS you see posted up on the internet from other sources backing or calling the absorption of water a MYTH, I assure you it is not as I deal with it in the lab (With Ethanol because I use it heavily in the lab as well as other chemicals). Anyone know what happens when dealing with DNA and your not using a high enough concentration of ethanol because your ethanol was either improperly diluted or one of the retards in the lab left the lid off...

When that ethanol sits in the storage tanks it is will absorb water just as gasoline and diesel do in ground tanks and during transport, etc. The only difference is that this will be much more readily absorbed when exposed.

Just as I'd only buy race fuel out of the drum, the same would be said about E85. While I think it is a great fuel in some aspects, I think there are some problems with running it, especially in cars not originally setup to run the fuel. (A FFV has sensors to determine the ethanol content and adapt the change in fuel. This is important because use of E85 in a car not originally made to run on the fuel cannot make these changes. Something I'd personally like to have as the E85 blends are not as consistent as your typical gasoline mixtures).

On a FFV, go ahead and run the E85, just change your filter often if you switch back and forth regularly between regular gas and E85. For your average vehicle I think it's fine. But on a performance vehicle, I'd like a little more consistency if I were gonna run it daily and I'd demand it if I was going to tune the car to run hard on the fuel.

[IMSHAKN]

LOL. Give it a break Bill.
There are many sub 10 second cars using the pumps stuff.
I hope the flex fuel vehicle I own doesn't blow up anytime soon after the thousands of miles I have driven it on E85. I bet it has a few gallons of water in the tank because the "real man of genius" read about it on google.

Your FFV is not optimized to run on E85. It will run on it fairly reasonably, but not as well as it could if the tune was optimized just for E85.

As far as the water goes, you don't get that much separation unless there are high water concentrations as Ethanol is miscible in water.

[BurnTire]

I never said it can't absorbed water, but this is being blown way out of proportion. Do you know how much the absorption rate is reduced when mixed with gasoline,are you aware that all E85 in the US has anti corrosion inhibitors? I have seen water more than my fair share of times in avgas. Just about every type of fuel can absorbed moisture. If you are happy buying $11 a gallon race gas so be it. I personally am sick of it. I will only buy race gas in a sealed pail. I will never ever buy it again from someone pumping it from a barrel.

I am switching to E85. I will have a tester that can measure the mix ratio so I am on top the blend info. I am aware of what cautions I must take when running corn.

[IMSHAKN]

That makes two of us who won't buy from an unsealed drum.

I know you deal with water contamination given Aviation gas. I remember the couple times I got to pilot a single engine plane when I was younger when I was considering getting my pilots license. I remember pulling a bit of fuel off the plane's wing and making sure that the fuel wasn't contaminated. (Or so I remember being told that's why we did that. Years ago, I could be wrong. Not gonna look it up). I don't care what they add to the fuel to help reduce its ability to pick up water, it still will. Removing water from substances that are miscible in it isn't always as easily done as it can be said. Or at least that's my personal experience. I've seen ethanol concentration drop as much as 15% in the lab based on results of gas chromatography. I will admit that this is lab grade pure Ethanol that was diluted with ddH20 and it may more readily absorb water due to its purity.



I am switching to E85. I will have a tester that can measure the mix ratio so I am on top the blend info. I am aware of what cautions I must take when running corn.

While you may be aware of them, fact is that most people who want to convert their performance vehicles over do not. If you approach it right, I don't have a problem with E85 in a performance application that sees primarily track time. But a daily driven performance car I just personally don't like the idea.

[BurnTire]

I did much research on E85 and got a bunch of good info from someone that works in the E85 industry. Moisture absorption issues are few and far between. The primary problem is incorrectly tuned vehicles. Tuning on the winter blend then going lean on the summer stuff. Boom.

[az2k1]

Look for about a 10% gain over regular gas. What size injectors does he have in the car?
he has 60lbs injectors ...the car was going lean so it was not safe ...
he made 550hp @19psi on 91 oct.......

[BurnTire]

he has 60lbs injectors ...the car was going lean so it was not safe ...
he made 550hp @19psi on 91 oct....... He will need 80's and a bump to (50PSI on the delta pressure). What does he have fuel pump wise?

[Rev'n Kevin]

OK, you guys have sold me, I'm going propane :woot1:

[BurnTire]

OK, you guys have sold me, I'm going propane :woot1: Ahh yes an ingredient of Nitromethane.

[az2k1]

He will need 80's and a bump to (50PSI on the delta pressure). What does he have fuel pump wise?
yeah he's going 80's and single pump .....should be done hopefully in by the new year so that the tune can retune .........:woot2:

[BurnTire]

yeah he's going 80's and single pump .....should be done hopefully in by the new year so that the tune can retune .........:woot2: Single pump return system?

[WildBill]

LOL. Give it a break Bill.
There are many sub 10 second cars using the pumps stuff.
I hope the flex fuel vehicle I own doesn't blow up anytime soon after the thousands of miles I have driven it on E85. I bet it has a few gallons of water in the tank because the "real man of genius" read about it on google.

Jeff
You can stop with your stupid insults.
I've set up and tuned 7 or 8 race cars on E85 that are a lot quicker than your car. I know what I'm talking about.
I'm making people aware of the hazards of E85, especially when it comes a high horsepower supercharged or turbocharged vehicles.
The examples you gave with water in avgas and diesel have no bearing on this topic. Diesel and avgas are not hygroscopic fuels. Water separates form those fuels. Put a cup of water in seperate clear containers of E85, avgas and diesel. You will see the water settle to the bottom. Over a set period of time the water in the E85 container will be ABSORBED, while you will still be able to see the water in the other containers.

All my intent in this thread is to make sure the people that are going to push the limit in their power adder cars know that their BEST OPTION is to obtain their E85 by the drum for the absolute best consistency AND safety.

PS........ I've owned (my company) 16 flex fuel Taurus and 3 Rangers

[BurnTire]

Jeff
You can stop with your stupid insults.
I've set up and tuned 7 or 8 race cars on E85 that are a lot quicker than your car. I know what I'm talking about.
I'm making people aware of the hazards of E85, especially when it comes a high horsepower supercharged or turbocharged vehicles.
The examples you gave with water in avgas and diesel have no bearing on this topic. Diesel and avgas are not hygroscopic fuels. Water separates form those fuels. Put a cup of water in seperate clear containers of E85, avgas and diesel. You will see the water settle to the bottom. Over a set period of time the water in the E85 container will be ABSORBED, while you will still be able to see the water in the other containers.

All my intent in this thread is to make sure the people that are going to push the limit in their power adder cars know that their BEST OPTION is to obtain their E85 by the drum for the absolute best consistency AND safety.

PS........ I've owned (my company) 16 flex fuel Taurus and 3 Rangers

Bill I will keep that in mind if I decide to put a water hose in my gas tank with E85. Every pump in the area has a hygroscopic factor being E10 is used universially. I see again you feel the need to express how much you know. If it makes you feel better about yourself so be it. I would really like to know where you tune these fast E85 cars at?

[WildBill]

Bill I will keep that in mind if I decide to put a water hose in my gas tank with E85. Every pump in the area has a hygroscopic factor being E10 is used universially. I see again you feel the need to express how much you know. If it makes you feel better about yourself so be it. I would really like to know where you tune these fast E85 cars at?

Again with your typical BS.

Memphis, Norwalk and Ft Worth.

Do I need them to join and tell you?

[BurnTire]

Some info from Dan Schoneck
Andy that he speaks of in the post develops flex fuel calibrations for GM vehicles for Diablo Sport.


Haha some of you guys kill me. I made 860rwhp with the stuff in my Gt500 with the stock motor and 1000rwhp with the built alum motor. Like the one guy said if you don't have a car that is older than 1985 you have NOTHING to worry about. Everyone needs to stop crying about e85 being a joke and inconsistant, cause it is know where near as inconsistant as 93octane fuel. I NEVER and do mean NEVER check my e85 at the pump and i make 27lbs of boost and 21 degrees of timing. I do make sure when we tune for the first time that we are on pure E85 and then after that i just go to the pump and let her ride. E85 is the best PERIOD pump gas ever made, like it or not and all the political BUllSh!T and its very comparable with the alcohol content of it to being as good as 112-114 octane race fuel. A good friend of mine this weekend is going to run 7's on a out of the pump non tested e85 with a 427 cubed twin 78mm turbo mustang. He has already been 8.18 @ 173 on out of the pump e85. It makes 26lbs of boost and has a air to air I.C. It has made 1384 rwhp on pump E85, and with turbos this is the limit of 160lb injectors on e85, blowers are around 1100rwhp.
The main thing to look at is the injector size and fuel pumps. We have went from 570rwhp with a stock blower,I.w,2.6 blower pulley, headers, intake to 626 just from the switch of E85 and that was only turning it 6300rpms with 22 degrees of timing. Twin screws and roots blower benifit from it even more as it kills any extra intake temp heat and makes the srew blowers more repeatable on the street pull after pull.
A little insight on back to the injectors. 60lbers are only good to 600 at 80psi of fuel pressure on korn. 72 are good till about 700ish, 96 are good till about 750 these are on blower combos not turbos or na. but really anything over 800rwhp should have 120-160lbs injectors. Stock gt500 pumps are only good to 620rwhp with 72lb inj and then you will need dual boost a pumps. Btw the 96lb hp rating was with a Procharger not a crew blower. I don't know how much hp it takes to drive a screw, but a f -series blower with run a 96lb injector at 80psi of fuel pressure out fuel at 730rwhp.

Hope this helps and Andy the guy that has helped me though out the years has done over 2500 e85 conversions and over 250 600+rwhp cars. In the last 4 years over 20 600+ cars for my self and customers. He has more Data than anyone one on the fuel, and combos wheather it be Na or turbo or blower.

Dan

[WildBill]

Hmmmmm..................Dan's located in "E85 Country"

Ever met Dan or Andy Wicks, BentRear?

Last time I saw Dan and drank a few was at Commerce, Ga

He made runner up in Renegade and I made it to the semi's in ModMotor and won Saturday's Fast Ford
Dan's a nutcase jokester, but Andy's a bit dry.

[BurnTire]

Hmmmmm..................Dan's located in "E85 Country"

Ever met Dan or Andy Wicks, BentRear?

Last time I saw Dan and drank a few was at Commerce, Ga

He made runner up in Renegade and I made it to the semi's in ModMotor and won Saturday's Fast Ford
Dan's a nutcase jokester, but Andy's a bit dry.

BentRear LOL. How is you car coming along? What has it been 3 years since it has moved under its own power?

No I never did meet either of these guys, but their expertise with E85 comes well recommended for those who do know them.

[WildBill]

BentRear LOL. How is you car coming along? What has it been 3 years since it has moved under its own power?

No I never did meet either of these guys, but their expertise with E85 comes well recommended for those who do know them.

Ya see BentRear..........that's a quandary. I can't really make my mind up if I want to make my money from this car on the street or on the track.
Either way, Louise will be quicker than you.
Maybe I'll run her on E85.:biglaugh:

[BurnTire]

Ya see BentRear..........that's a quandary. I can't really make my mind up if I want to make my money from this car on the street or on the track.
Either way, Louise will be quicker than you.
Maybe I'll run her on E85.:biglaugh:

E85 now your talking. Last time you said you couldn't decide on trannys. Now its a different excuse. Until you post up a timeslip you are just bench racing.

[silvrsvt]

:popcorn:

I have some buddy's back in idaho who have been running E85 for a long time now in their evo's with ZERO problems

here is a vid of 2 of them going at it, both on E85 and one running 36lbs of boost and the other 29lbs..

YouTube- 2003 Evo 8 w/GT3582r @36lbs-vs- Evil Eagle 2.3L w/GT3082r @29lbs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNcSpj0Z_lQ)

here is another vid of my friend Jake running 10's on E85 and a stock motor
http://www.youtube.com/user/ninesecdsm#p/a/u/1/3TIV0fOMmsM

[WildBill]

E85 now your talking. Last time you said you couldn't decide on trannys. Now its a different excuse. Until you post up a timeslip you are just bench racing.

No............Bench racer here. Remember, I was racing when you were a dirty thought in your Dad's mind.:biglaugh:

[az2k1]

U all are crazy funny... I put a EVO 9 with a GT30R @ 21lbs and put down 515hp on a all will dyno... But I my self run 2001 cobra on bottle w/VP113 yes its over kill but I like the VP smell ....

[Rev'n Kevin]

Hey check these e85 mustang drag cars out http://www.e85mustangs.com/rides.htm

Then check out the Roush propane mustang drag car http://www.muscularmustangs.com/2009/news0274_roush_propane_mustangs.php

[BurnTire]

No............Bench racer here. Remember, I was racing when you were a dirty thought in your Dad's mind.:biglaugh: Wow Bill is must suck to have been racing in 1970 and now not having a car that runs.:hi: Maybe instead of making a few thousand posts a week on every site in the country you could focus your efforts on your completing your car. There is no excuse for the delay.:yes:

[SloSVO]

where in phoenix would you get e85?

[BurnTire]

where in phoenix would you get e85?

http://www.e85refueling.com/

[BADASS03SVT]

now educate me here...Ive read a couple articles on this stuff and it is interesting but they did swaps on mostly stock cars.

what are YOU going to benifit from? just being able to run a smaller pulley with cheaper fuel?

what about my car for instance? Im already running a ton of timing and all is good....is there power to be had?

and does anyone sell it in drums?

[BurnTire]

now educate me here...Ive read a couple articles on this stuff and it is interesting but they did swaps on mostly stock cars.

what are YOU going to benifit from? just being able to run a smaller pulley with cheaper fuel?

what about my car for instance? Im already running a ton of timing and all is good....is there power to be had?

and does anyone sell it in drums?

The benefit you will see is from a (cooler burn = more power) and $2 a gallon instead of $11.

Yes you can get it in a drum.
Good info here.
http://www.e85performance.net/forums/index.php

[SloSVO]

so the pro's are that it is cheaper, runs cooler and has high octane..
the cons are that it it has lower thermal energy, and can absorb water..

and i guess its not made using petroleum from the wacky Iraqi's...

as a DD fuel though.. it doesn't seem to have much if any advantage over dino fuel..correct?

[BurnTire]

so the pro's are that it is cheaper, runs cooler and has high octane..
the cons are that it it has lower thermal energy, and can absorb water..

and i guess its not made using petroleum from the wacky Iraqi's...

as a DD fuel though.. it doesn't seem to have much if any advantage over dino fuel..correct?

If you can DD on pumps gas then do it. I can't street drive my car with 91 octane unless I swap pulleys.

[BADASS03SVT]

so the pro's are that it is cheaper, runs cooler and has high octane..
the cons are that it it has lower thermal energy, and can absorb water..

and i guess its not made using petroleum from the wacky Iraqi's...

as a DD fuel though.. it doesn't seem to have much if any advantage over dino fuel..correct?


lower thermal energy means.....lol

[BADASS03SVT]

The benefit you will see is from a (cooler burn = more power) and $2 a gallon instead of $11.

Yes you can get it in a drum.
Good info here.
http://www.e85performance.net/forums/index.php


its just alot of work to "hopefully" gain some power.

and since its "rated" at 105....what happens when you start running the motor to the point where you should be running say C16 (if you were still on regular gas)

[BurnTire]

its just alot of work to "hopefully" gain some power.

and since its "rated" at 105....what happens when you start running the motor to the point where you should be running say C16 (if you were still on regular gas) That is where the cool combustion temps come into play. Cool = less chance of detonation. Those are great questions to ask on the e85 forum. Get answers from those who have first hand experience.

[vicious781]

This thread delivers!

[SloSVO]

lower thermal energy means.....lol


it gives less power than the same amount of gasoline.. so you need more of it to equal the energy the gasoline gives... I think gasoline still is at the top of the BTU scale.. well maybe c4 or nitro..:twothumbsup:

[BADASS03SVT]

it gives less power than the same amount of gasoline.. so you need more of it to equal the energy the gasoline gives... I think gasoline still is at the top of the BTU scale.. well maybe c4 or nitro..:twothumbsup:


ahh ok..that I knew...just didnt remember seeing it called thermal energy. I know you need like 25-40% more fuel to make the same power.

[SloSVO]

my terms may be off..nice termee bythe way

[BADASS03SVT]

my terms may be off..nice termee bythe way

No prob...Im new to this


thanks! yea Im all out of power on her...if I knew I could swing another 15-20hp out of it from the e85 swap that would be nice.

[silvrsvt]

No prob...Im new to this


thanks! yea Im all out of power on her...if I knew I could swing another 15-20hp out of it from the e85 swap that would be nice.

umm fill the bottle? :biglaugh:

[BurnTire]

No prob...Im new to this


thanks! yea Im all out of power on her...if I knew I could swing another 15-20hp out of it from the e85 swap that would be nice. How about 50 t0 80 more?
http://www.whiteracing.com/e85.html
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144414

[BADASS03SVT]

umm fill the bottle? :biglaugh:


haha....thats too easy. who knows maybe Ill get addicted to it again if I get to try it out this weekend and it runs good.

[BADASS03SVT]

How about 50 t0 80 more?
http://www.whiteracing.com/e85.html
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144414


I have heard the 10% number a few times which on my car would be 50hp. I would be amazed.

now whats this guy talking about in the first link? you will need

Flex Fuel compatible ECM like FAST XFI or BigStuff 3
Fuel Composition Sensor
Wiring and Plumbing of the Ethanol Sensor and Fuel

[BurnTire]

I have heard the 10% number a few times which on my car would be 50hp. I would be amazed.

now whats this guy talking about in the first link? you will need

Flex Fuel compatible ECM like FAST XFI or BigStuff 3
Fuel Composition Sensor
Wiring and Plumbing of the Ethanol Sensor and Fuel

Thats stuff is not needed. I plan to get an Ethanol tester and sample each fill up. 80lb injectors and a BAP. 04sleeper on MF can give you some good info as he runs e85.